Planet Minis

minimotoracing · 06-14-2009, 12:57 AM

Hi

I wonder if i could get some advice from you.
I'm from the UK and will be running a NSF100 Trophy in the UK for kids aged 9-14yrs in 2010. We already run 50cc and 70cc series for metrakits and contis and even a GRC but really think that the Honda badge will do a lot for the sport in bringing people from the outside into our sport. We got our first bike last week and took it to a race meet sticking ex metrakit champ on it and then on a standard metrakit 50. No doubt about the fact the metrakit was faster (2secs on a 55sec lap). We need to make the NSF as fast (but only as fast) as we want NSF customer to be able to ride at other clubs against the 50's which wont happen if the bikes are faster. If other organiser wont let it run because its too quick then potential customers will be left with 2 options

1. £5000 honda that can only race 1 championship
2. £4200 metrakit/Conti that can race 3 championships

I know where my money would go.

What i am asking is does anybody have any advice on what will make that honda go that little bit quicker to run with the 50's thats not going rack the price of the bike up too much?

I am doing my homework here as we want the series to be the best so once we have decided on a setup then engines will be sealed to eliminate cheating, we want the focus to be on the kids and not how big dads wallet is or how clever your technician is.

Thanks in advance for your help
Ian

johnson05 · 06-14-2009, 09:16 AM

This is the age old question of trying to make a converted street bike as fast as a purebred race bike. The Conti's and Metrakits have better suspension, much lighter componentry and better set up's. You can run stiffer springs, port the head, shave the cylinder for increased compression, and put on some better brake pads and brake lines. The real problem is things like better gearbox ratios, lighter wheels and bodywork, along with a lighter frame are grossly expensive. How far do you go to prove your point? A lot of series have competative NSF100's but only because they allow a bump up in engine displacemant. You obviously know racing so you know that almost three seconds on a mini is going to be an almost impossible mountain to climb.

schofell84 · 06-14-2009, 12:01 PM

go with a big bore kit then sealing the motors sounds like a good start. where are the nsf's losing? the straights or corners?

fireman_343 · 06-14-2009, 03:43 PM

I'd say at least a 120cc Big Bore kit (Yosh, Tak, Kitaco, BBR, etc would all be VERY good for the NSF), slap in an emulator kit, custom springs and that would REALLY help out with the front suspension and that should shave off a few sec off your lap times!

TEAM QUAZZYMOTO RACING # 4

minimotoracing · 06-15-2009, 12:41 AM

Thanks
Brad that done the back to back test has won both the metrakit 50 and 70 championships and finished 7th in the 80 championship in spain- not bad for an 11yr old.
He actually said the honda handled really well, felt much smoother in the corners and the low down torque of the 4stroke made it good out of the corners but it lacked any top end.
In the UK our metrakits are stock, no head skimming or porting - all you can do is put the metrakit cylinder and crank on the Derbi or Am6 engine to bring them inline with metrakits own new engine which on our dyno is around 11.5hp at the rear wheel. We have an open class where you can do pretty much what you want and we have seen 17hp but its far more popular in the stock class which is where the honda will be.
We havent had the honda on they dyno yet but as honda only claim 7,5hp then i dont think ours will read more than 7hp.
what we need is more top end - the yoshi site shows about 3hp gain with carb and exhaust, but hardly anything with just exhaust so i'm led to beleive that the yoshi pipe is only good if your going all out and we may as well run stock systems. I suppose what i'm really asking is, is the carb kit going to transform the stock bike or will the big bore give a better result with the stock carb or is going to have to be both? remember what ever we do is on top of the UK £5000 ($8000) for the bike.
Thanks Again
Ian

fireman_343 · 06-15-2009, 05:47 AM

I run a BBR120cc kit on mine and I had it on the dyno after racing it for a season and it pulled 10.3hp... that is with the stock head and valves and just an aftermarket Webcam, 24mm round slide carb, lighter flywheel and custom exhaust that looks like Yosh's exhaust. You can see a video of the dyno run on my website. Video Gallery

I'd say if you are looking for more top end, get the Yosh 125cc kit, or Tak/Kitaco 124cc kits... they use an aftermarket head and will wake up the bike more then just my BBR kit that I've got. The stock head is what holds back all the power, the aftermarket superheads have larger valves and ports!!! On top of that, they have a lighter stroked crank that will spin up FAST. I think the Yosh and Tak kits offer roller cams that would be really nice for roadracing as well. At least a 24mm carb will need to be used also. Gearing will need to be played with for sure... I'm still playing with my gearing on my bike, but I think I've got it dialed in right for our home track.

If you think that would be too much or too fast to race the other bikes, then I'd just put a the Tak 115 kit with super head on, 24mm carb lighter flywheel and call it good to go!

TEAM QUAZZYMOTO RACING # 4

johnson05 · 06-15-2009, 03:59 PM

The biggest question is what is your four stroke engine displacement limit?

minimotoracing · 06-16-2009, 12:12 AM

thanks,
we have no limit on capacity, thats for us to decide what works. it would nice to keep the capacity lower offering the bigger capacity to an older class

eg 9-11yrs - 110cc + 24mm carb
11-13yrs - 135cc + 26mm carb + big valve head + exhaust

i cant see that its possible in the real world to make it as fast as a 70 metrakit but the kids have would then have a development path.
we dont want to put everything on the 1st class and then say you can have 2hp more for the 2nd class, and because its kids money counts - alot of parents couldnt afford another £2000 for 2hp more so we have to keep it simple
In the UK as we are a small country there is plenty of racing for kids on Kart circuits and now we are seeing that the 8yr old minimoto riders of 2001 are in motogp 125, 3 britsh 8yr olds of 2001/2/3 are currently in Redbull MotoGP Rookies proving we have an established path. The MiniGP bikes are the perfect stepping stone from minimoto (pocketbike) to proper roadracing. In the UK the next step is the Aprilia 125 Challenge (road bike aprilia) where there is a full grid of 45 bikes at every round and big list of reserves

fireman_343 · 06-16-2009, 06:01 AM

Quote:

i cant see that its possible in the real world to make it as fast as a 70 metrakit but the kids have would then have a development path.

That just depends on who is riding the bike... I know I can keep up with faster bikes that people thought would leave my bike in the dust... If you've got two equal talent kids, one on a big bore/modified NSF and the other on a 70 Metrakit... you'll be surprised at how well the NSF does. I'll have to agree that the CRF/XR motor does lack some top end, but I've got a stock head on still and race on kart tracks where our longest straight is maybe 900'??

TEAM QUAZZYMOTO RACING # 4

Luckystar64 · 06-16-2009, 11:27 AM

^^^ What he said. I have a Pro50 motor in my Metra, and on longer tracks with some wider turns and longer straights-- it will shine. On the small kart tracks we normally race at-- the torque of the 4 stroke will make it difficult to pass anywhere but a decent straight away. The motors are both powerful in two different places. So it depends on what tracks you are racing at. --L*64

ExSRAaron · 06-16-2009, 05:51 PM

Well said Lucky. I agree 100%

Luckystar64 · 06-17-2009, 12:23 AM

BTW-- I haven't seen the new Metrakit engine. My bikes have Derbi motors in them, and I have two back ups, one brand new. I have a feeling that these motors will last me as long as I'm going to be riding the bikes. I was just wondering if those new motors have billet cases or what. Any pics of it? --L*64

Dutchie · 07-05-2009, 01:59 PM

Buy your NSF's from a different source. In Spain they still cost 3800 euro's, which is about 3200 pound (2 HRC dealers: 02 and Impala). 5000 pound is way too much. Now compare that to the Metrakits...

anthrik · 07-06-2009, 12:54 AM

luckystar...ive got a pro50 in my metrakit with the pvl electronics and the pro pipe what would you say the bikes worth??? its in excellent condition with 20 miles on a fresh built motor also what do you think the hp is?

Luckystar64 · 07-10-2009, 01:13 AM

I'd put it right around 12-13 horse. I have the exact same setup, and it's a bit slower than my KX65 (around 14 horse), and a bit faster than my stocker Metrakit (about 9-10 horse).

What's it worth? Well... I have $8000+ into my Pro50 bike, but It's got to be worth only about three grand on the market. I'm planning to sell my stocker for around $2200 to get a set of Zokes and a shock for my Pro50. I was going to get the new swinger and some work on the body done with that cash too.

I had the stocker as a practice bike, but I don't do a ton of road racing right now. Where I live-- there are pit bike tracks and events in abundance compared to the kart tracks that we road race on, so I have been focusing more on dirt bikes. Plus the pit bike races are dirt cheap compared to road races, and they start later in the afternoons-- I like to sleep late! I have some awesome pit bike tracks 15 minutes from home. ---L*64

fireman_343 · 07-10-2009, 07:18 AM

You need to stop complaining and get your lazy A$$ to the track this Sat man! Henderson is going to be there racing my NSR in F1.. I'll give ya a wake up call if you want!

Luckystar64 · 07-17-2009, 07:06 PM

Awwww! I missed Henderson? What's he up to? I'll be at the next round at Beaver for sure. I have some brake pads on order for my ride. I've been riding all the time, but it's been dirt bikes rather than pavement. I go to the track by my house every Thursday night and ride my 65 til dark. No 40 year old man should be having so much fun on a bike intended for a 9 year old. --Ha Ha! --T

06-14-2009, 12:57 AM	#1 (permalink)
minimotoracing PM Newbie Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3	Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 Hi I wonder if i could get some advice from you. I'm from the UK and will be running a NSF100 Trophy in the UK for kids aged 9-14yrs in 2010. We already run 50cc and 70cc series for metrakits and contis and even a GRC but really think that the Honda badge will do a lot for the sport in bringing people from the outside into our sport. We got our first bike last week and took it to a race meet sticking ex metrakit champ on it and then on a standard metrakit 50. No doubt about the fact the metrakit was faster (2secs on a 55sec lap). We need to make the NSF as fast (but only as fast) as we want NSF customer to be able to ride at other clubs against the 50's which wont happen if the bikes are faster. If other organiser wont let it run because its too quick then potential customers will be left with 2 options 1. £5000 honda that can only race 1 championship 2. £4200 metrakit/Conti that can race 3 championships I know where my money would go. What i am asking is does anybody have any advice on what will make that honda go that little bit quicker to run with the 50's thats not going rack the price of the bike up too much? I am doing my homework here as we want the series to be the best so once we have decided on a setup then engines will be sealed to eliminate cheating, we want the focus to be on the kids and not how big dads wallet is or how clever your technician is. Thanks in advance for your help Ian Last edited by minimotoracing; 06-14-2009 at 01:00 AM.

06-14-2009, 09:16 AM	#2 (permalink)
johnson05 PM Newbie Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 72	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 This is the age old question of trying to make a converted street bike as fast as a purebred race bike. The Conti's and Metrakits have better suspension, much lighter componentry and better set up's. You can run stiffer springs, port the head, shave the cylinder for increased compression, and put on some better brake pads and brake lines. The real problem is things like better gearbox ratios, lighter wheels and bodywork, along with a lighter frame are grossly expensive. How far do you go to prove your point? A lot of series have competative NSF100's but only because they allow a bump up in engine displacemant. You obviously know racing so you know that almost three seconds on a mini is going to be an almost impossible mountain to climb.

06-14-2009, 12:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
schofell84 2nd Gear Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ogdensburg Posts: 278	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 go with a big bore kit then sealing the motors sounds like a good start. where are the nsf's losing? the straights or corners?

06-14-2009, 03:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
fireman_343 2nd Gear Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Blacklick Ohio Posts: 358 My Mood:	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 I'd say at least a 120cc Big Bore kit (Yosh, Tak, Kitaco, BBR, etc would all be VERY good for the NSF), slap in an emulator kit, custom springs and that would REALLY help out with the front suspension and that should shave off a few sec off your lap times! TEAM QUAZZYMOTO RACING # 4

06-15-2009, 12:41 AM	#5 (permalink)
minimotoracing PM Newbie Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 Thanks Brad that done the back to back test has won both the metrakit 50 and 70 championships and finished 7th in the 80 championship in spain- not bad for an 11yr old. He actually said the honda handled really well, felt much smoother in the corners and the low down torque of the 4stroke made it good out of the corners but it lacked any top end. In the UK our metrakits are stock, no head skimming or porting - all you can do is put the metrakit cylinder and crank on the Derbi or Am6 engine to bring them inline with metrakits own new engine which on our dyno is around 11.5hp at the rear wheel. We have an open class where you can do pretty much what you want and we have seen 17hp but its far more popular in the stock class which is where the honda will be. We havent had the honda on they dyno yet but as honda only claim 7,5hp then i dont think ours will read more than 7hp. what we need is more top end - the yoshi site shows about 3hp gain with carb and exhaust, but hardly anything with just exhaust so i'm led to beleive that the yoshi pipe is only good if your going all out and we may as well run stock systems. I suppose what i'm really asking is, is the carb kit going to transform the stock bike or will the big bore give a better result with the stock carb or is going to have to be both? remember what ever we do is on top of the UK £5000 ($8000) for the bike. Thanks Again Ian

06-15-2009, 05:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
fireman_343 2nd Gear Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Blacklick Ohio Posts: 358 My Mood:	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 I run a BBR120cc kit on mine and I had it on the dyno after racing it for a season and it pulled 10.3hp... that is with the stock head and valves and just an aftermarket Webcam, 24mm round slide carb, lighter flywheel and custom exhaust that looks like Yosh's exhaust. You can see a video of the dyno run on my website. Video Gallery I'd say if you are looking for more top end, get the Yosh 125cc kit, or Tak/Kitaco 124cc kits... they use an aftermarket head and will wake up the bike more then just my BBR kit that I've got. The stock head is what holds back all the power, the aftermarket superheads have larger valves and ports!!! On top of that, they have a lighter stroked crank that will spin up FAST. I think the Yosh and Tak kits offer roller cams that would be really nice for roadracing as well. At least a 24mm carb will need to be used also. Gearing will need to be played with for sure... I'm still playing with my gearing on my bike, but I think I've got it dialed in right for our home track. If you think that would be too much or too fast to race the other bikes, then I'd just put a the Tak 115 kit with super head on, 24mm carb lighter flywheel and call it good to go! TEAM QUAZZYMOTO RACING # 4

06-15-2009, 03:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
johnson05 PM Newbie Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 72	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 The biggest question is what is your four stroke engine displacement limit?

06-16-2009, 12:12 AM	#8 (permalink)
minimotoracing PM Newbie Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 thanks, we have no limit on capacity, thats for us to decide what works. it would nice to keep the capacity lower offering the bigger capacity to an older class eg 9-11yrs - 110cc + 24mm carb 11-13yrs - 135cc + 26mm carb + big valve head + exhaust i cant see that its possible in the real world to make it as fast as a 70 metrakit but the kids have would then have a development path. we dont want to put everything on the 1st class and then say you can have 2hp more for the 2nd class, and because its kids money counts - alot of parents couldnt afford another £2000 for 2hp more so we have to keep it simple In the UK as we are a small country there is plenty of racing for kids on Kart circuits and now we are seeing that the 8yr old minimoto riders of 2001 are in motogp 125, 3 britsh 8yr olds of 2001/2/3 are currently in Redbull MotoGP Rookies proving we have an established path. The MiniGP bikes are the perfect stepping stone from minimoto (pocketbike) to proper roadracing. In the UK the next step is the Aprilia 125 Challenge (road bike aprilia) where there is a full grid of 45 bikes at every round and big list of reserves

06-16-2009, 11:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
Luckystar64 3rd Gear Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brunswick, Ohio Posts: 1,494	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 ^^^ What he said. I have a Pro50 motor in my Metra, and on longer tracks with some wider turns and longer straights-- it will shine. On the small kart tracks we normally race at-- the torque of the 4 stroke will make it difficult to pass anywhere but a decent straight away. The motors are both powerful in two different places. So it depends on what tracks you are racing at. --L*64

06-16-2009, 05:51 PM	#11 (permalink)
ExSRAaron PM Newbie Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 80	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 Well said Lucky. I agree 100%

06-17-2009, 12:23 AM	#12 (permalink)
Luckystar64 3rd Gear Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brunswick, Ohio Posts: 1,494	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 BTW-- I haven't seen the new Metrakit engine. My bikes have Derbi motors in them, and I have two back ups, one brand new. I have a feeling that these motors will last me as long as I'm going to be riding the bikes. I was just wondering if those new motors have billet cases or what. Any pics of it? --L*64

07-05-2009, 01:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
Dutchie PM Newbie Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 Buy your NSF's from a different source. In Spain they still cost 3800 euro's, which is about 3200 pound (2 HRC dealers: 02 and Impala). 5000 pound is way too much. Now compare that to the Metrakits...

07-06-2009, 12:54 AM	#14 (permalink)
anthrik 2nd Gear Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: covina,california Posts: 297 My Mood:	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 luckystar...ive got a pro50 in my metrakit with the pvl electronics and the pro pipe what would you say the bikes worth??? its in excellent condition with 20 miles on a fresh built motor also what do you think the hp is?

07-10-2009, 01:13 AM	#15 (permalink)
Luckystar64 3rd Gear Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brunswick, Ohio Posts: 1,494	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 I'd put it right around 12-13 horse. I have the exact same setup, and it's a bit slower than my KX65 (around 14 horse), and a bit faster than my stocker Metrakit (about 9-10 horse). What's it worth? Well... I have $8000+ into my Pro50 bike, but It's got to be worth only about three grand on the market. I'm planning to sell my stocker for around $2200 to get a set of Zokes and a shock for my Pro50. I was going to get the new swinger and some work on the body done with that cash too. I had the stocker as a practice bike, but I don't do a ton of road racing right now. Where I live-- there are pit bike tracks and events in abundance compared to the kart tracks that we road race on, so I have been focusing more on dirt bikes. Plus the pit bike races are dirt cheap compared to road races, and they start later in the afternoons-- I like to sleep late! I have some awesome pit bike tracks 15 minutes from home. ---L*64

07-10-2009, 07:18 AM	#16 (permalink)
fireman_343 2nd Gear Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Blacklick Ohio Posts: 358 My Mood:	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 You need to stop complaining and get your lazy A$$ to the track this Sat man! Henderson is going to be there racing my NSR in F1.. I'll give ya a wake up call if you want!

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07-17-2009, 07:06 PM	#17 (permalink)
Luckystar64 3rd Gear Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brunswick, Ohio Posts: 1,494	Re: Simple mods to make NSF as quick as Metrakit 50 Awwww! I missed Henderson? What's he up to? I'll be at the next round at Beaver for sure. I have some brake pads on order for my ride. I've been riding all the time, but it's been dirt bikes rather than pavement. I go to the track by my house every Thursday night and ride my 65 til dark. No 40 year old man should be having so much fun on a bike intended for a 9 year old. --Ha Ha! --T