Class structure ideas

[motofinn]

For general info I wanted to get everyones thoughts on their ideal class rules for motard racing. Below are mine, feel free to add your thoughts. We have a few leagues all with varying rules here in Michigan (which I would love to see all altered in their own way). The factors I'm trying to base my ideas are on maintaining a level playing field and not blowing anyones budget to fun ratio. If anyone would like detailed reasoning behind these rules I'll be glad to elaborate.



50SS -



No internal motor/trans modifcations, aftermarket seat, suspension, wheels, gearing, bars, rev box and pipe are allowed. Any 10" tire. Stock swingarm, frame and forks



88cc -



Limited to 88cc and 26mm carb. 10" wheels/tires. Any clutch. Chassis must be 50 based.



Open -



Must run a 10" or 12" wheel combo on either a 110 or 50 chassis.

[PlanetMinis.com]

[Kovz]

if youve been following the glmmrs you would see the BS going on. IMO, people are going to break the rules. unless you have a way to tell if motor work has been done, its pointless setting the rule.



50 class

stock carb (jettin obviously allow), any motor mod except inner rotor and manual clutch, 10" wheels, stock frame, swingarm, forks.



your 88 would be fine, i would make it no inner rotor, no disc brake setups



open limted to 12" wheels and 124cc.

[motofinn]

I agree, cheaters are going to cheat. My basis on that rule is that the mods that are allowed won't give a huge advantage over the guy who chooses not to mod his bike, but can still ride compared to the guy with a large wallet that can't. From the racing we have going a modified 50 stands out like a sore thumb compared to a true stocker. I want to encourage the tuners to move on to the 88 or open and leave the 50 a riders class.



I do like your clarification of stock swingarm, frame and forks for the 50 class though and added them to the rules I posted.



Curious why you would choose no disc brakes for the 88 class?

[C.T.D.]

50cc STOCK- NO engine mods other than pipe, air filter and jetting. and a stock chassis



50cc Super Stock - High compression piston, cam, and manual clutch with stock tranny allowed NO other engine mods othere than pipe, jetting and air filter. Stock chassis



88cc - up to 88cc displacment and 10" rear tire. Chassis up for debate here.



Open - Run what you brung 50 chassis 10" rear tire mabey put a displacment cap say 124cc



Unlimited - same as open but allowing 12' rear tire mid-size bikes like the klx/drz displacment cap of maybe 134 or 143cc



That's pretty much where I would start if I where putting together a circut. and stock class rules would be heavily reinforced.

[taz69]

I have just 1 suggesttion I race SEMRA (South East Mini Racing Ass.) And alot of us have 95cc bikes... We run a 100 and under class that is what most Race organizations have over here (North Carolin) Have... We do have a stock 50 class then the next class up is 100 and under put the 88s 95s and under in the same class... No way could a 95 keep up with the next class which is 124s same rules and tire size just we have a 100 and under cc limit

[motofinn]

That's a good thought. We've had an over 100cc and under 100cc talked about as well, unfortunately they want to include the 50's in that group. I think you need at least 3 groups. If you go many more it just complicates things too much.

[GLMMRS]

Please excuse Kovz. He's basing his opinion on inaccurate and assumed hearsay - not actual facts.



The fact of the matter is that a good class structure is essential in running a long-lasting series. We're either fairly decent at putting sentences together that resemble structured rules, or we were hit with pure dumb luck. Regardless, there's always a loop hole to be found unless you are absolutely explicit in your rules.



CTD, I would recommend just running one 50cc class. It's simple and if done right, will generate a high number of riders on similar machinery. We've tried to make our rules such that it's a rider's class, but the new Yamaha has thrown us a curveball, in that it's a very good bike when tuned properly. We have some things we're doing next year that should take care of the issues we currently have in our Superstock class, but I would say one class would be better than two here. Especially with all the over 100cc bikes to deal with.



The over 100/under 100 class breakup is a simple solution, but it's a bit harsh on the Superstock riders who don't stand a chance. And then for the over 100cc guys, it almost becomes chaos because there are so many options and ways to spend money to be competitive.



For the 88-Extreme class (which is our "premiere" class), we don't allow disc brake setups, inner rotor kits, or manual clutches, soley because we don't want it to become a money class. We have enough to worry about with all the aftermarket head options that are available, and the price tag that comes with those. We want this class to have the best riders, closest racing, and overall most excitement. Trying to keep the bikes somewhat similar and not outrageously expensive is part of the continual challenge.

[motofinn]

[quote name='



For the 88-Extreme class (which is our "premiere" class), we don't allow disc brake setups, inner rotor kits, or manual clutches, soley because we don't want it to become a money class. We have enough to worry about with all the aftermarket head options that are available, and the price tag that comes with those. We want this class to have the best riders, closest racing, and overall most excitement. Trying to keep the bikes somewhat similar and not outrageously expensive is part of the continual challenge.[/QUOTE']



Ah yes, but this could be argued as how is it not a money class already? To keep things a non-money issue wouldn't a stock class be best? The moment you tear into a motor money becomes a factor. 88 kit's range from a couple of hundred to over $1K, too have limits on other mods seems pointless. A manual clutch for instance can run from $165 up to $700 or so - really what is the difference? The clutch will have more of an effect on personal riding style and where the power is delivered than anything. I doubt a TB 88 kit w/ a manual clutch is still a match for a Type-R 88 kit (let's not even talk about the ultra SE) with a heavy duty auto clutch - and who has more money into their bike?



Once you are competing in a modified class money is a factor - period. Granted your league is doing extremely well with the rules you've come up with, but with the money being thrown around the motors in GLMMRS the original justification for that rule seems to have been bypassed, it might be time to consider a revision next season.

[Kovz]

Ah yes, but this could be argued as how is it not a money class already? To keep things a non-money issue wouldn't a stock class be best? The moment you tear into a motor money becomes a factor. 88 kit's range from a couple of hundred to over $1K, too have limits on other mods seems pointless. A manual clutch for instance can run from $165 up to $700 or so - really what is the difference? The clutch will have more of an effect on personal riding style and where the power is delivered than anything. I doubt a TB 88 kit w/ a manual clutch is still a match for a Type-R 88 kit (let's not even talk about the ultra SE) with a heavy duty auto clutch - and who has more money into their bike?



Once you are competing in a modified class money is a factor - period. Granted your league is doing extremely well with the rules you've come up with, but with the money being thrown around the motors in GLMMRS the original justification for that rule seems to have been bypassed, it might be time to consider a revision next season.

88 class is NOT a money class. top guys are running kits in the $700 range, and some are doing great on trail bikes kits......... thats all thats needed to run the 88 class.



after spending $3000 on my motor, mine is finally capable of running up front in the open class, thats without suspension and brake upgrades which i have another $1400 or so into.......







your 88 class suggestion is pretty much the same as the glmmrs open class, with just a smaller CC limit... then you have your bone stock 50 class. there would be no middle. 95% of people out there just drop in 88s and go, half probably dont even know how to use a clutch. if someone is willing ot buy a 88SE, then its still legal, if you want a Take' R stage, or if you want a trail bikes kit. YES the person with the SE will have the advantage. in the open class you get into things like primary drive clutches, aftermarket gearboxes, inner rotors........... when you throw this much power at "cheap" kits, the cheap stuff tends to fail. so to have a real strong reliable stroker, YES you do have to drop a shitload to be safe.

[GLMMRS]

Yes, to some extent it has become more expensive, with all the different head options out there in the 88X class. In hindsight, we could have made it a "stock head" class, although I don't know if that would have been the end-all solution.



Overall the 88-Extreme class is doing what we wanted it to do, in being an extremely strong class with great racing and great riders. If we opened it up, a manual clutch runs up to $1200. Then an inner rotor kit for $400. And a programmable ignition for another $800. That's exactly what we don't want.



It's ironic because in the beginning, people were asking us why we were having so many rules for each class, as this was just for fun. Now we have people saying we don't have enough rules. People see that the high level of organization in the series works well. We've had riders change their bikes to meet our class structure and to race in our series, which we take as a sign that we're doing something right.



In the end, there is always someone pushing the envelope and trying to find a loophole in any sort of rule. It's our role to make the racing as close and as fun as possible. That's part of the challenge, and why we enjoy doing this (most of the time).

Ah yes, but this could be argued as how is it not a money class already? To keep things a non-money issue wouldn't a stock class be best? The moment you tear into a motor money becomes a factor. 88 kit's range from a couple of hundred to over $1K, too have limits on other mods seems pointless. A manual clutch for instance can run from $165 up to $700 or so - really what is the difference? The clutch will have more of an effect on personal riding style and where the power is delivered than anything. I doubt a TB 88 kit w/ a manual clutch is still a match for a Type-R 88 kit (let's not even talk about the ultra SE) with a heavy duty auto clutch - and who has more money into their bike?



Once you are competing in a modified class money is a factor - period. Granted your league is doing extremely well with the rules you've come up with, but with the money being thrown around the motors in GLMMRS the original justification for that rule seems to have been bypassed, it might be time to consider a revision next season.

[motofinn]

Thats fine fellas, I see your point. I still feel you are confusing the money to fairness issue though. In allowing any head with the 88 it totally becomes a financial issue. While the rules are strict to ensure fairness without a lot of money being spent, they are still open to a huge dollar amount... I may not be explaining my point correctly..



What it comes down to is this.... a manual clutch, be it $165 or $1200, doesn't ensure victory nor does one person running force others to run that as well to even compete, unless it also stands true for the head each motor has. It seems you can't have one without the other might be the best way for me to put it.



Just my 2 cents though....keep up your good work

[Kovz]

What it comes down to is this.... a manual clutch, be it $165 or $1200, doesn't ensure victory nor does one person running force others to run that as well to even compete, unless it also stands true for the head each motor has. It seems you can't have one without the other might be the best way for me to put it.

it doesnt ensure victory, but there is an advantage with the expensive clutches, as they are primary gear mounted, the "cheap" ones are crank mounted...... moving it to the primary gear is like adding an inner rotor and allows the bike to rev up quicker. so if you made the class, no inner rotor, manual clutch.......... it defeats the purpose if people run a good clutch and others dont. there good clutches also change your gear ratio's, which is an advantage for sure.

I still feel you are confusing the money to fairness issue though. In allowing any head with the 88 it totally becomes a financial issue.

thats something you cant police. like i said above, people will lie. if someone has an SE headed 88, do you think they are going to sell their SE head an put a STD head on?......... hell no..... some head out there arent even marked, and look no different from a stock head.

[motard1885]

If it was in the rules and they wanted to race, they would have to.



But in regard to Kovz statement about clutches, what he said holds true. There's a lot more to it than just "letting clutches in". That's why you have to be very specific and careful with the rules you make.

it doesnt ensure victory, but there is an advantage with the expensive clutches, as they are primary gear mounted, the "cheap" ones are crank mounted...... moving it to the primary gear is like adding an inner rotor and allows the bike to rev up quicker. so if you made the class, no inner rotor, manual clutch.......... it defeats the purpose if people run a good clutch and others dont. there good clutches also change your gear ratio's, which is an advantage for sure.



thats something you cant police. like i said above, people will lie. if someone has an SE headed 88, do you think they are going to sell their SE head an put a STD head on?......... hell no..... some head out there arent even marked, and look no different from a stock head.

[taz69]

Well I see ur point But SUPERSTOCK class is good, U have a 88 class that dosent allow all the extra stuff like disc brakes inner rotor ect... I Have the same thing but over here in NC we run that class with just a 95cc limit... WHAT would be wrong with keeping Ur same rules as in the 88x class just up th cc limit too include all of us over here on the east coast that have 95cc bikes... We run the same class with the same restrictions on the upgrades just include the 95 cc bikes this kit cost the same as a tb88. Same heads same stuff just different cc piston I dont think there is more that a 5 dollar price between the 2 pistons? Still Auto clutch still stock forks and brakes just stiffer springs.. Lightned flywheel only with a 95 cc piston and a tb race head.. ? Stock frame stock swingarm JUST a bigger piston thats all..That way SEMRA and Ur series would be on the same page and We could go to different series without building 2 Different motors because of 7cc

[motofinn]

Well I see ur point But SUPERSTOCK class is good, U have a 88 class that dosent allow all the extra stuff like disc brakes inner rotor ect... I Have the same thing but over here in NC we run that class with just a 95cc limit... WHAT would be wrong with keeping Ur same rules as in the 88x class just up th cc limit too include all of us over here on the east coast that have 95cc bikes... We run the same class with the same restrictions on the upgrades just include the 95 cc bikes this kit cost the same as a tb88. Same heads same stuff just different cc piston I dont think there is more that a 5 dollar price between the 2 pistons? Still Auto clutch still stock forks and brakes just stiffer springs.. Lightned flywheel only with a 95 cc piston and a tb race head.. ? Stock frame stock swingarm JUST a bigger piston thats all..That way SEMRA and Ur series would be on the same page and We could go to different series without building 2 Different motors because of 7cc

Ahh, now you're hitting on something........ being able to compete in multiple leagues with same motor in the same class. Uniformity will be a big issue, but it can be accomplished much easier wiht mini supermoto than mini moto-x I think. Mainly due to the smaller number of riders currently doing it compared to the other.



That's the biggest problem here in Michigan. With your 95cc you'd be in open in 2 leagues and in under 100 in a third. With my 88 I'm in 88 in one league, open in another, and in under 100 in yet another. Only in one is my bike equally matched power wise, albeit maybe not financialy according to some causing a major unbalance in the world which could kill us all.



Manual clutches and billet wheels - the 8th & 9th sign of armeggedon.

[GLMMRS]

Well I see ur point But SUPERSTOCK class is good, U have a 88 class that dosent allow all the extra stuff like disc brakes inner rotor ect... I Have the same thing but over here in NC we run that class with just a 95cc limit... WHAT would be wrong with keeping Ur same rules as in the 88x class just up th cc limit too include all of us over here on the east coast that have 95cc bikes... We run the same class with the same restrictions on the upgrades just include the 95 cc bikes this kit cost the same as a tb88. Same heads same stuff just different cc piston I dont think there is more that a 5 dollar price between the 2 pistons? Still Auto clutch still stock forks and brakes just stiffer springs.. Lightned flywheel only with a 95 cc piston and a tb race head.. ? Stock frame stock swingarm JUST a bigger piston thats all..That way SEMRA and Ur series would be on the same page and We could go to different series without building 2 Different motors because of 7cc

A 95cc class? What made that happen?



When we started our series, we looked at other series' out there to help build a foundation for rules and classes. The most common class was the Superstock and 88cc class.



If we upped it to 95, that'd be .. well kind of weird. Riders might as well go right into a 110 one would think.

[motofinn]

Kinda weird but what happens for a developing sport. What is going on is people have built their pitbikes to their desired power output as a hobby and for kicks to screw around with their buddies, then they find out you can actually race these little buggers..... only problem is who wants to re-do their bike after they just dumped a wad o' cash into it becuase of 7cc's?



You certainly aren't going to accomodate everyone, but I'm personally leaning more towards the over and under 100 plus a 50 class for my personal beliefs, just to simplify rules and accomodate as many as possible. It would also allow a potential cooperation between clubs to start hosting some serious races.

[GLMMRS]

Ahh, now you're hitting on something........ being able to compete in multiple leagues with same motor in the same class. Uniformity will be a big issue, but it can be accomplished much easier wiht mini supermoto than mini moto-x I think. Mainly due to the smaller number of riders currently doing it compared to the other.



That's the biggest problem here in Michigan. With your 95cc you'd be in open in 2 leagues and in under 100 in a third. With my 88 I'm in 88 in one league, open in another, and in under 100 in yet another. Only in one is my bike equally matched power wise, albeit maybe not financialy according to some causing a major unbalance in the world which could kill us all.



Manual clutches and billet wheels - the 8th & 9th sign of armeggedon.

Well said. Uniformity is very important. For the other people running bikes, the "over 100/under 100" isn't really an actual way of structuring classes; it's more or less a way to break the groups up for track time. The only place we've seen it's being done are at practice events - not any official race series/event. There's way too much of a gap between bikes (as mentioned earlier).



Finn, I don't expect you to understand the rules we have by this point. I will tell you that they aren't just our own ideas/concepts. We took the "spec" racing concept from series' that run much more and much bigger bikes than our little 50's, and they've made it work. We adapted that idea to our series and it's worked well so far.



Now am I against clutches? No. I would personally prefer to run one because it would be good practice for riding the bigger bike. However when we put the rules together, there was an emphasis placed on cost, and the clutch can become expensive (as can aftermarket heads, but I digress).



As for wheels, it's just another small thing that can snowball down the road. You might not see the advantage in aftermarket wheels, but what if someone has wheels that are half the weight of stock. That's a distinct advantage. We've got riders asking us if they can do this, that and the other - and if we let each modificaiton in; while it may only yield, say .2 of a hp, if they do 4-5 of those modifications, they've theoretically increased their power by up to 20-25%. Where do you draw the line then?



You'd be surprised some of the crazy questions we've been asked on what can and cannot be modified on their bikes to fit within our rules. So far though, the rules have worked extremely well. Looking from the outside in, I honestly think what we do works. And yet, there are still going to be further tweaks to what we do next year to make the racing even closer and better than it's been so far.



I know you're disappointed in not being able to run with the clutch, but keep petioning it - we may consider it eventually.

[GLMMRS]

You certainly aren't going to accomodate everyone, but I'm personally leaning more towards the over and under 100 plus a 50 class for my personal beliefs, just to simplify rules and accomodate as many as possible. It would also allow a potential cooperation between clubs to start hosting some serious races.

Then you've just created two money classes. Build your bike to the moon, just make sure it's under 100cc. And anyone with a 110 or a 124, your bike is now obsolete unless you get a 143cc kit for it, and put a whole bunch more money in to it to compete with the guys who really take building bikes seriously.



Not to mention you're rarely going to be awarding the fastest rider - only the fastest bike. *Entirely* what GLMMRS isn't about.

[GLMMRS]

Also - our primary goal was to create a fun, competitive race series where the riders won the races. I see your point in accomodating everyone - but in the end, there will be less fun when it becomes all about the money to win a little trophy for a mini-race.



If people think a particular race series is good, they will make their bikes fit into the class structure. We've had a large number of guys do that - most are ecstatic to race against people on relatively equal machinery, without breaking the bank.